Fuel environmental monitoring issue? MB rev or serial numbers affected?
#11
RE: Fuel environmental monitoring issue? MB rev or serial numbers affected?
(05-15-2019, 03:38 AM)Irinikus Wrote:  The Tezro doesn't suffer from the same issues as the fuel, it's far more robust, as it's based on a supercomputer node board! (Far more effort was put into it's design!)

The Tezro also has environmental monitoring, but I haven't heard of any cases where this system has failed in a Tezro.

Mwoah, it's more a generation thing I think. The O3K series had exactly the same problems with faulty environment monitoring that the Fuel has, and that's most certainly a supercomputer.

The O350 / Tezro / O3K CX bricks all share the same nodeboard but that was probably a cost savings effort. To be honest it's rather overkill in a system which is by definition single node (Tezro tower), but overall probably a good idea.

(05-15-2019, 10:39 PM)weblacky Wrote:  Pardon my ignorance, but I thought you could replace the DS1780 monitoring chips with new ones in a Fuel?  They are still produced (variant), I didn't think they were custom programmed or anything?  It's more a soldering challenge, right?

Spot on, there used to be a good thread about exactly that on Nekochan. The problem is one of precision soldering, nothing else. One of the DS chips is between the PCI slot connectors for example so it's practically impossible to replace except with hot air and proper shielding of plastic parts.

(05-16-2019, 05:12 AM)Raion Wrote:  I've been persuading people to not try fixing fuels and to part them out instead because they are losing VPros due to insufficient cooling at an exponential rate. This has driven up the market prices, making it harder for other users to keep spares in stock for their Tezro, InfinitePerformance Bricks, and Onyx 350s. While I hate to sacrifice the fuel for new enthusiasts, I also don't want to deal with increasing parts shortage and I don't think anybody else does.

The systems have flaws that are too numerous to overlook and that's why we don't recommend them. They are the DEC Multia of our hobby.

What makes you think the same VPro card would last longer in a Tezro? It's a card in the bottom of the system, with a shroud over it and a couple of fans to provide some airflow. In case it stops working ("vanishes" from the hardware inventory) and stops the system from POSTing, guess what: there's a DS1780 on the VPro card too... Those have the same reliability problems as the one on the mainboard and PIMM (and O3K bricks of the same vintage). You can salvage a working card and put it in a Tezro and you'd just displace the time bomb, not defuse it.

At least on a VPro card the DS chip is in a location where you could potentially fix it with the right tools and some SMD skills.
jan-jaap
SGI Collector

Posts: 305
Threads: 12
Joined: Jun 2018
Website Find Reply
05-16-2019, 07:46 AM
#12
RE: Fuel environmental monitoring issue? MB rev or serial numbers affected?
(05-16-2019, 07:46 AM)jan-jaap Wrote:  At least on a VPro card the DS chip is in a location where you could potentially fix it with the right tools and some SMD skills.

Looks like these Dallas chips can be had for pretty cheap: https://www.mouser.com/_/?Keyword=DS1780E&FS=True .

Do we have any positive confirmation that these DS1780E chips are drop-in replacements? As a 300 and 350 owner, I feel obligated to find out. Big Grin
Unxmaal
O2

Posts: 22
Threads: 9
Joined: Aug 2018
Find Reply
05-23-2019, 04:14 PM
#13
RE: Fuel environmental monitoring issue? MB rev or serial numbers affected?
Hi All,
Just placing this out there, I've actually placed a special soldering tunnel tip on order that (according to the original datasheet of the DS1780 dimensions, should desolder the chip package in one go (like 7 seconds) and lift it right out without any hot air usage.

If anyone has a dead mainboard or VPro they wanted to try this on (but are afraid of desoldering with hot air), I'd love to provide an alternative and I'd be willing to test my equipment out for free! I'm in the Seattle, WA area and could pickup something pretty easily.


Just expose the part and point me to it! In the future I was hoping to at least provide removal or replacement chip services. At this time the tip is still being dropped shipped to me, but I'd be willing to obtain a dead or test board now to immediately try it and clean the pads after removal.

Installation of a new chip can be done very easily compared with removal. One could just individually touch solder each leg to install the IC. The removal is harder due to compact/dense component layout. My new tip should cakewalk this, and make it a simple task (assuming no heatsinks or other part interference).

I can just remove the IC and clean the old solder off the pads and use a solvent to clean off any flux or residue, leaving you with a clean pad, ready to install a new chip!


Let me know!
weblacky
O2

Posts: 16
Threads: 1
Joined: Jan 2019
Find Reply
05-23-2019, 07:12 PM
#14
RE: Fuel environmental monitoring issue? MB rev or serial numbers affected?
(05-16-2019, 07:46 AM)jan-jaap Wrote:  What makes you think the same VPro card would last longer in a Tezro? It's a card in the bottom of the system, with a shroud over it and a couple of fans to provide some airflow. In case it stops working ("vanishes" from the hardware inventory) and stops the system from POSTing, guess what: there's a DS1780 on the VPro card too... Those have the same reliability problems as the one on the mainboard and PIMM (and O3K bricks of the same vintage). You can salvage a working card and put it in a Tezro and you'd just displace the time bomb, not defuse it.

At least on a VPro card the DS chip is in a location where you could potentially fix it with the right tools and some SMD skills.

Because the Tezro has better cooling, and the environment monitoring isn't faulty, which means that users do not need to worry about having the card cook itself because they turned off env monitoring so they can still use their systems (I think turning off env monitoring is a stupid idea for long term, but some people on Nekochan like Hamei swore anecdotally their systems were fine).

Basically the Fuel is just super defective and underpowered and I don't think that the high parts demand they funnel in is worth their collectability.

Of course, I'm just one person and that's my opinion. I'm not going to lecture people on how to use their systems, but I am going to do my best to suggest new users go for an easier to use system.


Raion
Operator
*******

Posts: 584
Threads: 113
Joined: Nov 2017
Website Find Reply
05-23-2019, 07:24 PM
#15
RE: Fuel environmental monitoring issue? MB rev or serial numbers affected?
I suspect Ian Mapelson has some thoughts on these issues. I have the impression he has or is considering doing some of these repairs for his parts/support business given the continued demand for later generation MIPS/IRIX hardware for a variety of industrial uses.

I'm considering a Fuel available locally (I think it's still available?), but I am very spooked by the chances of failures being quite high over not so distant time frames. The ATX replacement solves the PSU issues, but the idea of the SMD ICs going bad is the stuff of nightmares for vintage hardware collectors.

Indigo Indigo Indy Indy Indigo2 Indigo2 IMPACT O2 O2 Octane Octane2
Dylanear
O2

Posts: 34
Threads: 5
Joined: Feb 2019
Find Reply
05-23-2019, 07:37 PM
#16
RE: Fuel environmental monitoring issue? MB rev or serial numbers affected?
(05-23-2019, 07:24 PM)Raion Wrote:  Basically the Fuel is just super defective and underpowered and I don't think that the high parts demand they funnel in is worth their collectability.

Of course, I'm just one person and that's my opinion. I'm not going to lecture people on how to use their systems, but I am going to do my best to suggest new users go for an easier to use system.

I have about a dozen beautiful, clean SGIs all working great when I put them in storage a decade ago, 1000 miles from where I am now. R3000 Indigo to Octane 2 and just about every desktop system in between. If I could just grab one or three of those real easy I probably wouldn't be looking for yet one more SGI. But as it is I have two SGIs available locally, an 8bit base Indy with less than ideal looking plastic, or for about 50% more a nice working Fuel. So I think it's going to have to be a Fuel! Hopefully I can provide good care and hopefully if the motherboard dies the V10 board won't? Hopefully? 

I do pray that all my collection in storage will only need new RTCs/batteries when I get them out again eventually, but who knows which of those will boot and which will be dead. Sad
Poor neglected things.

Indigo Indigo Indy Indy Indigo2 Indigo2 IMPACT O2 O2 Octane Octane2
Dylanear
O2

Posts: 34
Threads: 5
Joined: Feb 2019
Find Reply
05-23-2019, 09:52 PM
#17
RE: Fuel environmental monitoring issue? MB rev or serial numbers affected?
(05-16-2019, 06:51 AM)Irinikus Wrote:  There was a member on Nekochan who successfully managed to replace them, if I remember correctly, he was based in Britain. (For the life of me, I can't remember who it was though.)

He had the SMT work professionally done.

I remember that as well. Anyone with a hot air gun can replace the chip easy enough. You'll need a good magnifier though.
epitaxial
O2

Posts: 20
Threads: 2
Joined: May 2018
Find Reply
06-09-2019, 07:21 PM


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)